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That time Lochhead destroyed my marketing department (previous interview)

Niche Down (previous interview)

Lochhead on Marketing (his podcast)

Interview with DEA guys

Niche Design – the leader in Dialog Podcasts

The state of Podcasting

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Data Flywheel

Netflix uses their Data Flywheel to double their hit rate

Build Platforms Not Products

17:22 MoC is brought to you by ahrefs – learn why we use ahrefs for SEO, check out some of the things that only ahrefs can do!

Data exchange as part of the customer/vendor relationship

Looking at the US elections through the Marketing lens

The biggest mistake in the history of marketing

How the democrats could fix their marketing problem

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Machine-Generated Transcript

What follows is an AI-generated transcript. The transcript may contain errors and is not a substitute for listening to the episode.

Christopher Lochhead
So the big aha for me, john, is we are now at a point where I believe data is more valuable than cash. Said simply, if you’re in marketing or you’re a CEO and you’re not building a data flywheel today, what are you doing?

John Wall
Hey, everybody. That’s Christopher Lochhead. Today’s guest I’m very excited to share this interview with you. But I do have to warn you up front. I have not edited Christopher down at all. And so if you can’t take our rated language, we will have to see you next week because he goes off on a rant around the 24 minute mark. And okay, so for anybody that’s staying around, thanks for hanging out here. Probably got your earbuds in or ear muffs for the kids, whatever. Just one other thing. We’re going to be in Brooklyn on May 11. At mad con NYC doing an analytics boot camp. We would love to see you there. But that’s enough for the pre roll. Let’s get right into it with Christopher

Christopher Lochhead
Here we go. Here we go. We’re anytime you want to get started. Honey ham. I’m ready.

Unknown Speaker
VCs marketing over coffee with Christopher Penn and John Wall.

John Wall
Good morning. Welcome to marketing over coffee. I’m John Wall. Today, our guest is Christopher Lochhead three time public company cmo. We’ve talked many times in the past, and I’ll have links to the past interview so you can get caught up. We don’t have to rehash the whole story of how we met. And he destroyed the marketing department at the company I was working at, because it’s just a fantastic story. But Christopher, thanks for joining us.

Christopher Lochhead
so stoked to be back with you, john, my brother from another mother

John Wall
to catch everybody up. I mean, things just been crazy. Because last time we talked, we were talking about the book niche down. And since then, you’ve got Lochhead on marketing, which has been on fire, you’re totally hitting it there. And then think different. You’ve pivoted a little bit I think we talked a bit about the pivot. But you recently just had the show with the DEA agents that’s on fire. And so we want to talk about that too. What’s at the top of your list when like when you get up to face the day now what’s taken up all Your time as you get going, where do you start?

Christopher Lochhead
Well, it is surf season. So that’s hugely important, you know, so there’s always a checking of the forecast and seeing when and where and the tides and so forth. So the, you know, that’s always very important. But I think beyond that, yeah, my It feels like both podcasts have really blown up in a very good way in the last three to six months or so. So that’s super exciting. This episode we just dropped with the real DEA Narcos, the two guys responsible at least on the American side for partnering with the Colombians to take down and Pablo Escobar are incredible guys, Steve Murphy and Javier Pena. They’re the basis for the show Narcos, which is now I think the number two or number three Netflix ever and so getting to meet those guys getting to hang out with them and getting to you know, record a special two part podcast series with them was an absolute life thrill and I just, you know, this podcasting thing is I don’t know. It’s I know it sounds corny, but it’s turned into this massive gift in my life, I get to have these incredible experiences that I wouldn’t otherwise.

John Wall
Yeah, well, and it opens up like, like you said, You’ve got two hours worth of stuff in the can with these guys. So you’re getting the whole story out of them you’re getting you know, it’s not just like this 15 minute puff piece you, you get to dig in and, and the crazy thing is, I mean, those are the guys that actually did it. They’re putting their life on the line to make that come together and to get through it.

Christopher Lochhead
Well wrap your mind around this. This is back in the late 80s, early 90s. Escobar had a $300,000 bounty on their heads in the heads of any DEA agent,

John Wall
open season on them. They’re having to live that every day as part of their daily life.

Christopher Lochhead
Well, yeah, and Murph was there for three years, and Pena was there for six years. And there was a point in time, Escobar declared war on Colombia twice and almost a third time. And there was a point in time where there were as many as 30 to 50 car bombings a day and so Every time they opened a car door and it didn’t blow up, they’re like poof. I mean, it was, it was that kind of situation. I mean, he they were murdered. He was murdering police officers, women and children. He blew up a bookstore full of women and children ahead of school season one year. The numbers that he murdered are, you know, nobody knows for sure. But you know, 15 to 15,000 people. I mean, it’s, he was the world’s first narco terrorist. And you know, he was one of the most evil guys in history. That’s crazy. And we’ll

John Wall
have a link to that. So you can get people can get straight to those shows, to check those out to get more on that. But now and so this is interesting, because this plays into what we’re talking about when we talk to you two books back talking about category design and how to put a market together. You are ranking on the dialogue podcast category, which is actually something that you had that was originally what got you into the first podcast. So talk about that and where that came from and, and how you’ve worked back into it.

Christopher Lochhead
It’s been it’s been amazing. And here’s the AHA. You know, so I’ve now been podcasting for three years. And how long has it been now? For you, john, remind me.

John Wall
It’s been like, I don’t know. I think we’re heading up on 1314 because 2000 Yeah, five was the first stuff we had drop in marketing over coffee didn’t start till like 2007. So that’s

Christopher Lochhead
only 13 years. Yeah, I knew you were over a decade but so that makes you one of the oh geez, for sure.

Unknown Speaker
Right old man gangster.

Christopher Lochhead
But you know, so I got started much later in the game, of course. And I think when I started there were six hundred thousand podcasts, something like that. I can’t remember exactly. But at the time, what people were saying was, hey, look, unless you’re like a massive celebrity and they’re incredibly well known, which of course I am not. Or you’re part of a major media company or Fox or NPR or, or you’re an incredibly well funded startup in the podcast space wonder he or one of these types of outfits. You can’t make it So in other words, the days of successful independent podcasters are over. And here we sit three years in. I have two podcasts that regularly chart in the top 200. Overall, today, there are 900,000 podcasts. And in the business category we’ve hit number one. Here’s the AHA. I love music. And one of my favorite new artists is this gal lizzo. You know, she was nominated for all these Grammys and stuff this year. And she’s just incredibly creative. And I think compelling and the songs are fun. My wife got me into her. And then you had this other young gal, Billy Eilish, who won all the awards this year, and she’s got all this great new music and stuff. And so whether you’re lizzo or Billy Eilish or whoever, here’s what they didn’t do. They didn’t sit there, john and say, You know what, Paul McCartney is the greatest songwriter ever. He’s sold more records than anybody will ever sell. And so fuck it. I’m not gonna be a musician. I’m not gonna write songs. I’m not gonna To perform because I can never compete with the with Paul McCartney. So there’s no point. So when I hear this stupidity about, oh, you know, we’re at 900,000 podcasts, and it’s about to go to a million. And podcasting is over and this and that and like, well, they’re still writing love songs. Right, right. I think we’re in the very beginning. And I think the success that we’ve been able to have our team’s been able to have incredibly proud of. But I think it’s important as it underscores the fact that a no name with a great group of people can get together. And if you do something that you’re committed to, and you get your niche down, right. And we didn’t get it right in the beginning, by the way, we had to re swizzle. But my point is, it’s still possible. Of course, it’s still possible. I encourage anybody who’s interested in podcasting to get into podcasting. If you got something important, you want to contribute something of value want to contribute or the very early days and I think the future of podcasting is barely Beginning podcasting this year might scratch a billion dollars in ad revenue. It’s nothing. It’s mouse nuts. And it’s way more compelling than radio. And I think in a lot of ways, it’s way more compelling than audio books. And in some ways, it’s way more compelling than video. And so I think we’re in the very beginning, I think there’s been some incredibly exciting new podcasts that have come out, we can talk about if you like, but I think podcasting as a medium for creative people, for entrepreneurs, for anybody who really wants to do something cool, is wide open. And I think for marketers and advertisers look, and I’m biased. But listen, I’m a three time cmo. I think I get to say this. I think you’re nuts, for not sponsoring podcasts for not getting into podcasting, and for not exploiting this exciting, dynamic, high growth. Super cool, super creative, new medium.

John Wall
We have to pause just for a moment to thank LinkedIn marketing solutions for their support of marketing over coffee, time in places everything especially in marketing, but in today’s age of a million messages. per minute, and not enough hours in a day, how do you really catch people’s attention? Fortunately, there’s a simple way LinkedIn can help you speak to the right professionals at the right time. With over 62 million decision makers on LinkedIn, you’re able to connect with the right business leaders who are relevant to your company. And with LinkedIn ads, you can make sure your messages are getting through to these relevant people. Even small and medium sized businesses are making the most out of LinkedIn ads. They’re using LinkedIn to get their voices heard and their messages to resonate with the audience. It’s not just about awareness, either LinkedIn ads are driving traffic and engagement, whether that’s business to a landing page registrations to an event or downloads of thought leadership content, because with precise targeting SMBs can speak to the people that matter. We’re using LinkedIn all the time for Chris’s us guy answer videos. We put stuff up there, we get all kinds of interaction from folks in the industry. There’s just no better place to get business related discussions going or to put your content out there. Every other social network is filled with cat videos and a bunch of baloney LinkedIn has got business nailed down. It’s the place you need to be at the end of the day LinkedIn ads Helping smaller businesses get big results. You can try it for yourself. LinkedIn is offering a free 100 LinkedIn ad credit to launch your first campaign. Simply visit LinkedIn comm slash MLC that’s linkedin.com slash MLC. Go on over there, check it out, get your ad credit, use it for your main gig, your side projects, whatever linkedin.com slash MMC terms and conditions apply. And we thank them for their support of the show. All right, so for marketing stuff, you’d send me a link to an HBr article about data flywheel flywheel, we hear that thrown around a lot to tell us how we should be thinking about flywheel. What’s your approach on this? And what

Christopher Lochhead
is paying off? What my buddy Eddie Yoon, and I, Eddie, I think is the smartest category guy in the world. He’s written more for HBr on category than anybody. So he and I worked on this. And what we’re talking about is something fairly specific, which is your ability to capture data about customers. Not just your customers, but the category overall, what Eddie calls super consumers, which The sort of the top plus or minus 10% in any category that really move that category, what legendary companies do is they build a data flywheel. And if you sort of think about Amazon or Netflix as simple examples, I think we can all relate to every time we do something on either of those, they learn more about us. So if you look right now at the quote unquote, streaming wars, Are there going to be room for several players? I think there probably will. But category queen and king economics will apply. And even with a Disney that has amazing content, what they don’t have is a data flywheel That is to say, every time you and I stream something on Netflix, they know more about us. Their hit rate for new content is about if I remember right, 70% when they when they greenlight something 70% of what they greenlight wins. And if I’m remembering this, right, I’m not an expert on the entertainment business, but if I’m remembering this Right, john, I think the hit rate for the industry is 30%. And so the data that they have about customers and their preferences and their tastes, and when they view and what they view on and edited, all this stuff that they’ve had now for almost 20 years they have had for 20 years is a massive competitive advantage. And the AHA here is that companies with a data flywheel have a much greater chance of becoming a category Queen category King business. That’s the first one. And the second one, and this is the data science part of it. We did some research fortune puts out a list of the fastest growing companies. We took that list for a decade. We looked at those companies and we built what we thought was a fairly objective criteria for saying which companies on this list appear to have a data flywheel Allah Netflix, Allah, Amazon, that is to say they’re capturing customer information, and they’re able To act on that information, sometimes in a real time way to really drive much more business much more wallet share with those customers. So we built that criteria. And we looked at all those companies on the list the fortune list over a decade. And so we separated the companies that we believe had something like a data flywheel and those that didn’t. And then we looked at their market caps over time. And here’s the AHA companies that are fast growing. So this is the fortune fast growing list. So this is not like fast growers, versus you know, shitbag dogs This is fast growing companies to fast growing companies. The ones with a data flywheel are five x more valued by investors than companies without and the dot we’re trying to connect and it bears out in the data science is that having a data flywheel particularly as a as a company that is trying to pioneer a new category, as you build that data fly with The data flywheel is one of the main ingredients today that allows you to become the category queen. In addition to that, you’re going to be valued five x more. And if those two things are true, you’re going to be able to build a moat moat around your category dominance in a way that companies that don’t have a data flywheel won’t. And so the big aha for me, john, is we are now at a point where I believe data is more valuable than cash. And as marketers if one of our primary jobs if not, our primary job is to be the company that designs and dominates a market category over time. What I’m sharing with you is I think what the research is telling us, john is we are now at a point in time, where building a data flywheel has become a seminal component of a category design and domination, strategy and that So, said simply, if you’re in marketing or you’re a CEO, and you’re not Building a data flywheel today, what are you doing?

John Wall
Yeah, you’re gonna miss the boat. That’s the main criteria that separates you from the rest of the batch. I mean, whoever’s got the best data wins. And that’s tied into product. So you kind of have this interesting thing of not only do you have to be able to execute on the product, but you’ve got to have the backend data straight to be able to make it all work. So that’s just kind of cranks up the difficulty of it all. When you see companies then is it basically just you have to go look at their product, and then check out their data structure and see if they’ve got, you know, hooks to build that data and ramp it up as they’re going. And that’s basically the number one thing that they need to work on to give themselves a chance to rise above everybody else. I think

Christopher Lochhead
so. And, and the big aha for me here is don’t think of your product or service as a product or service. Think of it as a platform. So for example, Tesla is an awesome example. Look, I don’t know what words they use internally. They don’t invite me to the meetings, but somewhere along the Line, they figured out, they’re not building a car. They’re building an iPhone, their product emits data, just like an iPhone does. And today with sensors and IoT, and obviously the cloud and all of the stuff when you and I don’t have a Tesla, but when you park your Tesla in your garage, it connects to your Wi Fi, and it downloads all the data, just like your iPhone downloads all the data to Apple and the carriers and all this stuff, right. And so if you know everything about how I drive, you’re able to do a set of things that a manufacturer who doesn’t have all that data about how I drive can’t do. And so my point is, I think it’s time to rethink our products and services and say, one of our product, what we’re selling is a platform that emits data. What’s the data that it should or could be emitting If we were smart, and we were us, which is one of my favorite questions, were definitely us. I’m not sure if we’re smart. But if we were smart, and we were us, how would we transform our service or product so that it emits data, and that we can monetize that data to better serve and market to customers? I think that’s a very radical fucking idea, john.

John Wall
It is it is. There’s more I want to jump into on that. But first, we just have to take a second to thank h refs for their support of marketing over coffee. When it comes to SEO tools. href makes competitive analysis easy. Their tools show you how your competitors are getting traffic from Google and why you can see the pages and content that send them the most search traffic find out the exact keywords they’re ranking for, and which backlinks are helping them rank. From there you can replicate or improve on their strategies. If you’re not getting significant search traffic href tool also helps to find topics worth creating pages or content on you can easily see estimated search volume and gauge traffic potential with their keyword explorer tool. And if you Getting search traffic features like their top pages report to break down which of your pages are bringing the most traffic will then let you figure out how you can replicate that success across your entire website. We’ve got an article that talks about all the unique things that href can do as far as researching keywords, researching your competition, and just driving more traffic to your own site. Getting more conversions, more traffic is the way to go. The product is h refs, it’s a h ri f s.com. But we drop the ad and just say hrs, checkout, href COMM And we could not produce the show without them, we thank them for their support. Yeah, that is a radical idea. And then you just kind of switched on the light bulb for me, something I thought of is that private companies need to be thinking more about all these social media companies and news companies, all these people that have been scraping data from the general public without their knowledge. In many cases, companies need to think about that same thing with their customers. And it’s a whole different deal now because there’s a one to one relationship in their customer so you can actually explain as you go, like, Hey, here’s the data. We’re collecting. Here’s why we’re collecting because we can do these things better for you. It kind of gets away from this other model of like, well, you’re sharing pictures and cat videos, and you don’t realize that like all this stuff is being categorized on you and you all kinds of data is being scraped away. And we see more and more of that closing, should as customers, is that going to be a part of, you know, the customer relationship that, hey, you’re buying this product, but keep in mind that, you know, data exchange is a huge part of this.

Christopher Lochhead
I think data exchange is a massive part of it to a degree to a degree to which most of us don’t understand. Here’s a simple Aha, State Farm progressive and I think maybe a few others, but those for sure, because you see the ads, they’re advertising on TV right now. Driving insurance products, car insurance products that monitor how you drive and they give you a discount for being a good driver. Well, that business idea that business model wasn’t possible until very, very recently. And what you’re doing when you do that is you’re trading your data for a discount. Now, by the way, given the way I drive, this is a product I will never be interested in buying, because if they know how

Unknown Speaker
I get a raise,

Christopher Lochhead
I drive a Shelby Cobra Mustang john, and my rates are going up if they knew. But anyways, I digress. And so I think what we’re going to see is more of that, which is, if I give you my data I get you know, it’s what my friend Jay Larson calls to give to get what’s the gift to get? The other thing and this is, you know, I don’t know if you want to get political or not, I hope we get to a place in America where our data we own. And if a company is monitoring us in any way, shape or form, they have to tell us b we can opt out and see if they’re going to monetize that data. We need to understand it. So in the case of a State Farm, they’re giving us a discount for that data. I would like To see us get to a place that says we own our data. And I think i think i think there’s a chance we’ll get there over time.

John Wall
Yeah, okay, well, and we might as well go down that route as we’re recording here. It is super tuesday today. And so it’s just been an interesting one thing that’s surprised me is Mike Bloomberg just pouring so much money into this, you know, just basic ad spend, because my kids have come out of nowhere and saying, Mike gets it done. Who’s Mike? What’s, what’s my call about? And they don’t even know that booty gig. And you know, Elizabeth Warren, these people have been working for years and he’s just shown up on the scene and in the space of a month, made himself visible and available. Where are you hiding all this? What do you what are you seeing and what are you thinking about what’s going on with you know, the whole approach this

Christopher Lochhead
says you might expect I you know, and I’m sure you do as well, I I watched the election through a marketing lens, not just a political lens, you know, I have my political beliefs. I’m I’ve been a political junkie since I was a kid and sort of half because I care about our world I think and I I care about our world a lot. And I have my opinions like many of us do, but the other half for me is very much marketing oriented. So let me stick on that. Unless there is a dramatic marketing strategy change by the Democrats. Or unless there’s some very bizarre thing that happens, you know, I don’t, you know, we got to Coronavirus right now, if that were to get massively out of control, and people believe the Trump administration really eff that up, you know, are there outlier things that can happen that might affect the election? Yes, of course, there are. But all that to the side, john, current course and speed. My prediction, in part because of the Democrats, marketing stupidity, and in part because of the genius of the Trump administration’s marketing savvy. I think we’re going to have a two term Trump presidency and here’s why. Legendary marketers have a point of view, legendary marketers set an agenda, legendary marketers position themselves were my favorite expressions john, position yourself or be positioned. And most importantly, the greatest category designers, entrepreneurs and therefore marketers in the world want others to be compared to them, and then never them to be compared to others. That’s why the distinction between better versus different is so important. If I’m having a better conversation. I’m playing a comparison game. And the biggest idiots of this for decades is Pepsi. Here’s a simple example. Most Pepsi ad say Coke, right? Pepsi tastes better than coke. Pepsi tastes better than coke. Pepsi tastes better than coke. Pepsi tastes better than coke. What’s on your mind?

John Wall
Yeah, coke. Let’s go try coke.

Christopher Lochhead
Right. So let’s try this again. Pink unicorns, pink unicorns. JOHN, you can think about anything you want. Just don’t think about pink unicorns. We’re not we don’t want for more years to pink unicorns, no more pink unicorns. As a matter of fact, that pink unicorn in the White House tweets too much enough with a pink unicorns, no more pink unicorns. What are you thinking about? That’s Yeah,

John Wall
the subliminal is just the pink unicorns are there over and over again, you can’t get rid of it. That’s a you can’t extinguish it. So let’s

Christopher Lochhead
look at marketing principles. Trump is setting an agenda. Trump has a provocative and pull a point of view Make America Great Again, which he’s now modified to keep America great, right. And that’s been turned into an acronym. Of course, we all know magga right. Now let’s look at Hillary. Her slogan. Do you remember her slogan?

Unknown Speaker
I’m with her. That was head. I’m with her.

Christopher Lochhead
Now, what’s Mike slogan? Might you set it but yeah, Mike, we’ll get it done. Right. So here’s the mistake. legends market their point of view. legends are missionaries. They’re evangelists for something greater than themselves in a business context, we call that a category. Right? So the big insight is categories make brands, not the other way around. Smith Corona has a great brand. No one gives a shit. You know why?

John Wall
We’re not using typewriters for anything anymore. nobody

Christopher Lochhead
buys typewriters anymore. That category died. Categories make brands. The reason Google’s a legendary brand is because search is one of the most important things in our world. That’s what makes Google a legendary brand. Not that Google did any branding in any traditional sense. It’s one of the biggest mental f ups in the history of marketing people spend all this money on brand. Smith Corona has a great brand. Xerox has a great brand. Dell has a great brand. No one cares. And the reason is, their categories are irrelevant or dead. So that’s point A. When you don’t understand this, you market your product. You have a product conversation, because you think the best product wins. I’m with her the narrative with Hillary was she’s the most qualified person ever to run for the presidency. Let’s say that was true. Again, I’m not having this is in no way shape or form of political conversation. I’m talking about the marketing pieces of this. Let’s say that was a fact. Hillary had a better conversation. Trump has a different conversation predicated on a vision or a mission or in marketing terms, what we call a point of view. And we’re seeing it all over again today with Joe Biden. We’re seeing it all over again today with Mike Bloomberg. And all they talk about is we got to be Trump, we got to be Trump. We got to be Trump. Yeah. And they fallen into the same trap that honestly And marketers fall into which is hey, if the world could just see how faster better, cheaper, smaller, bigger, rounder, softer, harder my car budding you later is will when they’re playing a comparison game that is a reaction to the other side’s point of view. Translation. Every time they say we’re going to be Trump, no more Trump, no more Trump no more Trump. They’re doing the asinine thing that Pepsi does, when they say, tastes better than coke tastes better than coke tastes better than coke. And so my point is, unless the Democrats, whether it’s Bloomberg, or right now it’s looking like, you know, it may very well be Biden, unless they get their own agenda, unless they get their own mission. And they make it about that. Not. Categories are about customers. brands are about products and companies. That’s the AHA here and what marketers need to understand No one gives a shit about your brand. No one gives a shit about your service, they give a shit about them. They give a shit about their own problems. They give a shit about their own opportunities in life. And so Trump made magga resonate. And if you bought into his category point of view, then you bought into him. That point of view that he had was about the country, and therefore about the people in the country. You can think manga is great, you can think it’s terrible, whatever you want to think about manga. That’s your opinion. What I’m talking about is from a marketing perspective, he took a category point of view approach, which is about in this case, the country translation, the customer, and Hillary took a product point of view, which was about her, Bloomberg and Biden are making the exact same mistake. They’re making the conversation about Trump. It’s a reaction to him and so far, they Have an argument about their product. They don’t have an argument about the country that is to say, their customers.

John Wall
Yeah, I can totally see that. How about what do you think for a category for them? And this is obviously just speculation, but what should they be putting forth as their vision or, you know, what can they put out there? that’s compelling.

Christopher Lochhead
Here’s what I think they should do, and they’re not going to do it. Whoever the nominee is, if I were them, the slogan would be America, for everyone. Because what it does, is it takes Trump Trump is known as the quote, divider in chief. Right? And again, I’m not having a political conversation. I’m not trying to bring my views into it. But he has been divisive. We’re living at a time of diversity. We’re living at a time where millennials care about inclusion more than ever before. We’re living in the time of me too. We’re living in a time where the non white vote matters more than those White vote. We’re living at a time of massive and this is a big platform for the Democrats. economic disparity between the top and the bottom and the middle class is shrinking in the United States. And that is a real problem. Right? So those are the sorts of the democrats want health care for everybody. Right? And the republicans don’t. And so if they were smart, they would if I was Joe Biden, assuming he’s the nominee, or potentially Bloomberg, or I don’t know for who knows, whoever it ends up being, my slogan would be America for everyone. And the democrats position on healthcare and economic equality and the environment and so forth, could all fit under that banner. And you’d have to have this debate now this point of view argument around America for everyone and make America great. And you would attack him on ideas, and most importantly, put him on his heels. Are you Fight fan By any chance, john?

John Wall
Yeah, I’ve been known to take the pay per view now and then yeah,

Christopher Lochhead
you happen to watch the Tyson fury Deontay Wilder fight recently the second one. No, no, I think Tyson fury is the greatest modern boxer right now. And I think he’s just incredibly exciting. So they had this first fight. Two guys and the fight went the distance. And in the final round of the first fight, Wilder who’s known who’s the American fury is the the Brit Wilders known as having one of the most terrifying right hands in boxing today and maybe even in history. He hits fury in the final round, knocks him out. Wilder falls to the canvas, arms down, eyes roll back in his head. The fight was pretty much even to that point. And everybody thinks the fights over the ref starts counting them out. fury gets up finishes the round, most people say fury won the round and the fight gets called draw. So they just had the second fight. Now fury is known as a boxer, a technical boxer very elusive and how he moves but not necessarily a net knockout artist, Wilder almost all of his wins or by knockout. In the second fight, fury changes everything up. Instead of doing all the dancing and moving like he normally does, he just comes forward. He even said he was gonna do it in the pre fight, interviews and stuff. Anyway, for the first time in Deontay Wilder his career, he gets knocked out. Because fury is the first guy to just come forward and put them on his heels. And he’s never had to fight moving backwards before and he finally knocks him out. It was an incredible, incredible fight, and I hope but it sounds like there might be a trilogy fight. But here’s my point as it relates to marketing, and as it relates to the democrats right now, and it’s been true since the minute Trump declared his candidacy. He has been enabled to put the democrats on their heels. He’s the one coming forward. They’re constantly responding to his agenda. Whoever the Democratic nominee needs to be, he needs to fight like Tyson fury. They need to come forward they need to make Trump respond to their agenda. But frankly, I don’t think the democrats have the marketing Moxie to do it. We’ll see. But if they don’t, and and they’re responding to Trump, Allah pink, pink unicorns and coke, we’re going to get four more years of the Trump presidency.

John Wall
That’s excellent. Now, we will have to see how this plays out. It’s definitely gonna be an interesting year, we’ll see where everything goes and and follow it along. Or we could go on all day. There’s a ton of stuff and it’s always a thrill to catch up with you. I’ll have links in the show notes to as I said, past interviews, everything going on with lockout and marketing and the D episodes. You can get everything in the show notes. And of course, if you want to sign up for the marketing over coffee newsletter, we push all these links out to you so you don’t have to Worry about taking notes or get caught with your hands on your phone while you’re driving. Please just subscribe to the newsletter and you’ll save yourself that hassle. Christopher. Thanks for joining us today.

Christopher Lochhead
JOHN. I’m always stoked to be with you. And I can’t wait to have you on my marketing podcast, hopefully very soon.

John Wall
That sounds good. Yeah, we’ll get that going. But that’ll do it for this week. So until next week, enjoy the coffee.

Unknown Speaker
You’ve been listening to marketing over coffee. Christopher Penn blogs at Christopher s pen.com. Read more from john Jay wall at jw 51 fifty.com. The marketing over coffee theme song is called mellow g by funk masters. And you can find it at music le for meh vo or follow the link in our show notes.

John Wall
Oh my god, how’s it disaster today? All right. Thank God for editing